It would be very interesting to share some successful experiences with "non physicalist" (at least, mind body) medicine.
I've successfully used attention training myself and with others to help them reduce pain, either with less or no medication.
I've also regularly found that 30 minutes or so can lower a fever when I have the flu as much as 3 or 4 degrees (from 103 or 102 to 99, sometimes down to 98 or even 97.
I was briefly part of a research project (meditative advisor!) that explored using Tibetan Buddhist "tummo" (heating, or agni) methods to increase body temperature. I was teaching people to use devices that measured finger temperature. I was chosen for this as I was also able to raise my finger temperature at least 4, sometimes more, degrees.
On the other hand, I've been on a low dose of blood pressure medication since 2003. I've tried every supplement, every exercise regime, food regime, Ayurvedic, Chinese medicine, breathing method, guided imagery, and it's still almost exactly the same as it's been on meds for 20 years.
I haven't tried fasting for more than 24 hours, which is supposed to be one of the most powerful ways. I lost 30 pounds in 3 months in 2003, and have not been able to lose the additional 15 pounds I thought would be ideal - Since July, I've lost another 10 pounds, and have about 5 more to go to get to that ideal - we'll see if that works.
Meanwhile, a study in July showed that certain isometric exercises could help also - been doing them but still no noticeable effect (the BP numbers drop as much as 20 points immediately afterward but then return to where they word, usually in the 140s and 90s, if you're aware of BP guidelines, that's still mild hypertension.
I have a strong feeling if I was more directly aware of pranic energy, it could be resolved in days. In fact, I"m usually aware of a powerful flow of energy in and all around me, but I don't know anybody who could reliably guide me to direct this (or open to it) in a way that would lower the BP.
Would be nice if we had practitioners as well as researchers who had direct knowledge of subliminal mental and vital consciousness, understood how this interacts with the subconscient and the relationship of both the psychic being and Self to all of this (as well as the role of the higher spiritual mind levels!
Yes, nice summary of what an alternative way to conceive healing could be. I would also add how fear of illness and external mental formations and suggestions play a decisive role. If only a fraction of all that money spent in the genetic, neuro, molecular blablabla would be spent into resaerch of these effects and especially put into practice by physicians, that would lead to much more medical progress.
If you want to see massive physicalist, dualist and other kinds of confusion, it's a great place to explore.
The name "placebo" - literally, "if you please," - was chosen to indicate some kind of meaningless effect.
Finally, after decades, leading researchers are saying we should replace that word with something describing what is actually happening - namely, the expectations and subconscious beliefs of the mind are having a direct physiological impact.
Like everything in my field of psychology, there seems to be an incredibly strong motivation to find limits to the placebo - 'ok, well, it turns out placebo effects may cure depression and dramatically reduce pain, and maybe nocebo (the opposite) effects can lead to heart attacks, but that's it - no possibility of rebuilding bone."
Just like with running a 4 minute mile (declared impossibly by almost all physiologists until Roger Bannister broke the record) and lucid dreams (declared impossible by almost all dream researchers until 1981, when Stephen LaBerge proved them wrong) we already have some evidence that mental imagery (and placebo related effects) MAY actually lead to repair of bones (and though few want to even acknowledge it, there's solid proof of psychokinesis - the mind affecting matter NOT connected to the body, which should, I think, lead one to at least consider that there may be no limits to how the mind can affect the body)
A good example of this in the article below is the so-called "conclusion" that naloxone could block the analgesic effect of placebo-analgesia. I'm amazed it wasn't even noted in the below linked article, but there have been experiments suggesting that there may be placebos (!) "strong" enough to overcome the blocking effect of naloxone.
Well, I'll include one of my favorite samples of placebo research, from one of the greatest placebo researchers, Patrick Wall:
It turns out round white placebo tablets are effective, but the least of all pills.
If you cut the corners of the tablet, making it look more square, for some reason people subconsciously believe that's more effective, and in fact, it is.
Colored tablets are still more effective, and a capsule with beads is more effective than that (if the beads are colored they're more effective than monochrome beads.
Far more effective placebos than any kind of tablet or capsule are injections.
One doctor reported to Dr. Wall that he would take forceps and hold the tablet using the forceps, saying to the patient, "This tablet is so powerful, if I or anyone touches it for whom it is not prescribed, it could have overwhelming effects."
Over the past 30 years there has been a surge of research on the placebo effect using a neuroscientific approach. The interesting aspects of this effort are related to the identification of several biological mechanisms of both the placebo and nocebo effects, the latter of which is defined as a negative placebo effect. Some important translational implications have emerged both in the setting of clinical trials and in routine medical practice. One of the principal contributions of neuroscience has been to draw the attention of the scientific and medical communities to the important role of psychobiological factors in therapeutic outcomes, be they drug related or not. Indeed, many biological mechanisms triggered by placebos and nocebos resemble those modulated by drugs, suggesting a possible interaction between psychological factors and drug action. Unfortunately, this new knowledge regarding placebos has the potential of being dangerously exploited by pseudoscience.
The question is what the “placebo/nocebo effect” is really about? Obviously, physicalists look first and almost exclusively into the brain’s neurology, and thereby, fall in the very same trap that made them so blind to the placebo for decades, and that they finally recognize.
I like to see things from the IY perspective. Sri Aurobindo and Mother were talking about a ‘consciousness of the body’ (or ‘mind of the cells’, if you prefer) which is constantly subjected to mental formations (our own ones, and external ones coming from others) and suggestions (from others) and self-suggestion (our own), fears, and misplaced faiths. Suggestions, formations, conditionings, etc. that are deeply imprinted in our subconscious and physical mind (i.e., the brain) and that the conscious mind struggles to ‘disbelieve.’ That’s why the placebo works through the subliminal that sidesteps the physical mind and opens to higher powers and/or ‘de-realizes’ the illness making the body consciousness ‘change its mind’, literally. And there is also the ‘environmental consciousness’ (or ‘circumconscient’) of the body connected to a universal physical, subtle physical, vital and other universal planes, through which these suggestions, formations, conditionings, etc. come and go, and are accepted or rejected. It is this latter acceptance/rejection that can heal us or make us sick immediately. As Mother used to say “it is an inner movement” which can “de-realize the sickness.” Of course, it can repair bones. Why shouldn’t it? It is the self-suggestion that it can’t, and makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. In fact, she also said that one of the most common negative suggestions come from doctors and relatives around us (“you can not”, “it is impossible”, “this is terribly dangerous”, “this will make you sick”, etc., etc.) That’s what, at an occult level, the placebo is about.
But this is almost all subconscious stuff going on of which we are not aware of. The real research modern science should do is to look further how to bring the placebo effect from an involuntary (only subliminal) mechanism that occurs more or less occasionally, into a controlled practice that is sustained by our surface awareness (one way could be that of learning to increase our faith in the power of the mind to condition the body consciousness.) But, of course, the materialist will never accept this spiritualist account and looks for the neural correlates of the placebo. The question then is: Once you know what this neural correlate or activity is…. then what? The instinctive idea is that this could furnish insights to create drugs that can cause the same neurological phenomenon and thereby, are supposed to have the same curative effect. I doubt we will ever be able to manufacture such drugs, but even if so, I doubt that they will have the same effect, even if they reproduce exactly the same neural activity.
But I guess that they would brand this way of seeing a “dangerous pseudo-science.”
WOW! Such a profound relief to see IY psychology written about with such clarity (rare even in IY circles).I love the detailed way you bring out so many dimensions of possibilities in terms of how the placebo works. I hope at some point we can go into this more in our Way Beyond Materialism group - and even more, in our “IY In Everyday Language” group.
Agree about the dangers of trying to develop a “Drug” that can do any of this. I also doubt if it will be much more than superficial effects. I saw an article the other day by Aaron Carroll in The NY Times, a leading health advisor who occasionally pays lip service to mind body interactions.
He evidently has struggled with depression and obesity for years, and finally relented to drugs for both, and wrote the most infuriatingly physicalist description of how it has helped him.
One of the things I find most baffling is the extraordinary psychological ignorance of people (a large majority) who say, “Well, we need drugs to help us control our appetite because ‘willpower” doesn’t work.”
Then when they elaborate they say, “Instead of willpower, you have to learn to make smart choices, prepare food so you don’t eat extra when you’re stressed, plan ahead when you go out to eat,” etc - all of which are based on volition.
Obviously, they’re talking about blind vital-egoic desire as will power (“blind” being the tamasic/physical mind aspect and “egoic desire” being the rajasic aspect) in contrast to static mental will, hopefully supported by at least a psychic influence wherein one appreciates the beauty of food and truth of the body as a Divine instrument, etc etc.
See, this is why we need IY in everyday language!!
Well, I may also take a bit the physicalist defense, occasionally. For example, it is my experience that some pain killers work well and are reasonable to use in certain cases. I know of people who used surgery against obesity and it looks like it helps, at least to a certain degree, if it augments the right psychological attitude. And for those most mechanical bodily issues (e.g. a fractured bone) I would not refrain from putting on a plaster. So, I would not be too harsh with a drug and mechanistic based medicine.
As to willpower we associate it too much with an effort, a struggle, a striving that requires enormous amounts of energy. The opposite is true, it is about becoming aware that, again, the belief that it is so difficult is the biggest hurdle that keeps the mind fixed on the object of vital desire. Ultimately it is about doing yoga... we know that "all life is yoga." :)
Very nicely written and compelling
It would be very interesting to share some successful experiences with "non physicalist" (at least, mind body) medicine.
I've successfully used attention training myself and with others to help them reduce pain, either with less or no medication.
I've also regularly found that 30 minutes or so can lower a fever when I have the flu as much as 3 or 4 degrees (from 103 or 102 to 99, sometimes down to 98 or even 97.
I was briefly part of a research project (meditative advisor!) that explored using Tibetan Buddhist "tummo" (heating, or agni) methods to increase body temperature. I was teaching people to use devices that measured finger temperature. I was chosen for this as I was also able to raise my finger temperature at least 4, sometimes more, degrees.
On the other hand, I've been on a low dose of blood pressure medication since 2003. I've tried every supplement, every exercise regime, food regime, Ayurvedic, Chinese medicine, breathing method, guided imagery, and it's still almost exactly the same as it's been on meds for 20 years.
I haven't tried fasting for more than 24 hours, which is supposed to be one of the most powerful ways. I lost 30 pounds in 3 months in 2003, and have not been able to lose the additional 15 pounds I thought would be ideal - Since July, I've lost another 10 pounds, and have about 5 more to go to get to that ideal - we'll see if that works.
Meanwhile, a study in July showed that certain isometric exercises could help also - been doing them but still no noticeable effect (the BP numbers drop as much as 20 points immediately afterward but then return to where they word, usually in the 140s and 90s, if you're aware of BP guidelines, that's still mild hypertension.
I have a strong feeling if I was more directly aware of pranic energy, it could be resolved in days. In fact, I"m usually aware of a powerful flow of energy in and all around me, but I don't know anybody who could reliably guide me to direct this (or open to it) in a way that would lower the BP.
Would be nice if we had practitioners as well as researchers who had direct knowledge of subliminal mental and vital consciousness, understood how this interacts with the subconscient and the relationship of both the psychic being and Self to all of this (as well as the role of the higher spiritual mind levels!
Now that would be quite a science!!!
Yes, nice summary of what an alternative way to conceive healing could be. I would also add how fear of illness and external mental formations and suggestions play a decisive role. If only a fraction of all that money spent in the genetic, neuro, molecular blablabla would be spent into resaerch of these effects and especially put into practice by physicians, that would lead to much more medical progress.
Do you much about placebo research?
If you want to see massive physicalist, dualist and other kinds of confusion, it's a great place to explore.
The name "placebo" - literally, "if you please," - was chosen to indicate some kind of meaningless effect.
Finally, after decades, leading researchers are saying we should replace that word with something describing what is actually happening - namely, the expectations and subconscious beliefs of the mind are having a direct physiological impact.
Like everything in my field of psychology, there seems to be an incredibly strong motivation to find limits to the placebo - 'ok, well, it turns out placebo effects may cure depression and dramatically reduce pain, and maybe nocebo (the opposite) effects can lead to heart attacks, but that's it - no possibility of rebuilding bone."
Just like with running a 4 minute mile (declared impossibly by almost all physiologists until Roger Bannister broke the record) and lucid dreams (declared impossible by almost all dream researchers until 1981, when Stephen LaBerge proved them wrong) we already have some evidence that mental imagery (and placebo related effects) MAY actually lead to repair of bones (and though few want to even acknowledge it, there's solid proof of psychokinesis - the mind affecting matter NOT connected to the body, which should, I think, lead one to at least consider that there may be no limits to how the mind can affect the body)
A good example of this in the article below is the so-called "conclusion" that naloxone could block the analgesic effect of placebo-analgesia. I'm amazed it wasn't even noted in the below linked article, but there have been experiments suggesting that there may be placebos (!) "strong" enough to overcome the blocking effect of naloxone.
Well, I'll include one of my favorite samples of placebo research, from one of the greatest placebo researchers, Patrick Wall:
It turns out round white placebo tablets are effective, but the least of all pills.
If you cut the corners of the tablet, making it look more square, for some reason people subconsciously believe that's more effective, and in fact, it is.
Colored tablets are still more effective, and a capsule with beads is more effective than that (if the beads are colored they're more effective than monochrome beads.
Far more effective placebos than any kind of tablet or capsule are injections.
One doctor reported to Dr. Wall that he would take forceps and hold the tablet using the forceps, saying to the patient, "This tablet is so powerful, if I or anyone touches it for whom it is not prescribed, it could have overwhelming effects."
https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/full/10.1146/annurev-pharmtox-052120-104536
Over the past 30 years there has been a surge of research on the placebo effect using a neuroscientific approach. The interesting aspects of this effort are related to the identification of several biological mechanisms of both the placebo and nocebo effects, the latter of which is defined as a negative placebo effect. Some important translational implications have emerged both in the setting of clinical trials and in routine medical practice. One of the principal contributions of neuroscience has been to draw the attention of the scientific and medical communities to the important role of psychobiological factors in therapeutic outcomes, be they drug related or not. Indeed, many biological mechanisms triggered by placebos and nocebos resemble those modulated by drugs, suggesting a possible interaction between psychological factors and drug action. Unfortunately, this new knowledge regarding placebos has the potential of being dangerously exploited by pseudoscience.
Thanks, Don, very informative stuff.
The question is what the “placebo/nocebo effect” is really about? Obviously, physicalists look first and almost exclusively into the brain’s neurology, and thereby, fall in the very same trap that made them so blind to the placebo for decades, and that they finally recognize.
I like to see things from the IY perspective. Sri Aurobindo and Mother were talking about a ‘consciousness of the body’ (or ‘mind of the cells’, if you prefer) which is constantly subjected to mental formations (our own ones, and external ones coming from others) and suggestions (from others) and self-suggestion (our own), fears, and misplaced faiths. Suggestions, formations, conditionings, etc. that are deeply imprinted in our subconscious and physical mind (i.e., the brain) and that the conscious mind struggles to ‘disbelieve.’ That’s why the placebo works through the subliminal that sidesteps the physical mind and opens to higher powers and/or ‘de-realizes’ the illness making the body consciousness ‘change its mind’, literally. And there is also the ‘environmental consciousness’ (or ‘circumconscient’) of the body connected to a universal physical, subtle physical, vital and other universal planes, through which these suggestions, formations, conditionings, etc. come and go, and are accepted or rejected. It is this latter acceptance/rejection that can heal us or make us sick immediately. As Mother used to say “it is an inner movement” which can “de-realize the sickness.” Of course, it can repair bones. Why shouldn’t it? It is the self-suggestion that it can’t, and makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. In fact, she also said that one of the most common negative suggestions come from doctors and relatives around us (“you can not”, “it is impossible”, “this is terribly dangerous”, “this will make you sick”, etc., etc.) That’s what, at an occult level, the placebo is about.
But this is almost all subconscious stuff going on of which we are not aware of. The real research modern science should do is to look further how to bring the placebo effect from an involuntary (only subliminal) mechanism that occurs more or less occasionally, into a controlled practice that is sustained by our surface awareness (one way could be that of learning to increase our faith in the power of the mind to condition the body consciousness.) But, of course, the materialist will never accept this spiritualist account and looks for the neural correlates of the placebo. The question then is: Once you know what this neural correlate or activity is…. then what? The instinctive idea is that this could furnish insights to create drugs that can cause the same neurological phenomenon and thereby, are supposed to have the same curative effect. I doubt we will ever be able to manufacture such drugs, but even if so, I doubt that they will have the same effect, even if they reproduce exactly the same neural activity.
But I guess that they would brand this way of seeing a “dangerous pseudo-science.”
WOW! Such a profound relief to see IY psychology written about with such clarity (rare even in IY circles).I love the detailed way you bring out so many dimensions of possibilities in terms of how the placebo works. I hope at some point we can go into this more in our Way Beyond Materialism group - and even more, in our “IY In Everyday Language” group.
Agree about the dangers of trying to develop a “Drug” that can do any of this. I also doubt if it will be much more than superficial effects. I saw an article the other day by Aaron Carroll in The NY Times, a leading health advisor who occasionally pays lip service to mind body interactions.
He evidently has struggled with depression and obesity for years, and finally relented to drugs for both, and wrote the most infuriatingly physicalist description of how it has helped him.
One of the things I find most baffling is the extraordinary psychological ignorance of people (a large majority) who say, “Well, we need drugs to help us control our appetite because ‘willpower” doesn’t work.”
Then when they elaborate they say, “Instead of willpower, you have to learn to make smart choices, prepare food so you don’t eat extra when you’re stressed, plan ahead when you go out to eat,” etc - all of which are based on volition.
Obviously, they’re talking about blind vital-egoic desire as will power (“blind” being the tamasic/physical mind aspect and “egoic desire” being the rajasic aspect) in contrast to static mental will, hopefully supported by at least a psychic influence wherein one appreciates the beauty of food and truth of the body as a Divine instrument, etc etc.
See, this is why we need IY in everyday language!!
Well, I may also take a bit the physicalist defense, occasionally. For example, it is my experience that some pain killers work well and are reasonable to use in certain cases. I know of people who used surgery against obesity and it looks like it helps, at least to a certain degree, if it augments the right psychological attitude. And for those most mechanical bodily issues (e.g. a fractured bone) I would not refrain from putting on a plaster. So, I would not be too harsh with a drug and mechanistic based medicine.
As to willpower we associate it too much with an effort, a struggle, a striving that requires enormous amounts of energy. The opposite is true, it is about becoming aware that, again, the belief that it is so difficult is the biggest hurdle that keeps the mind fixed on the object of vital desire. Ultimately it is about doing yoga... we know that "all life is yoga." :)
Yes, I’ve taken and still take blood pressure pills for 20 years!
But we’ll see - I remain ever optimistic that the NEXT thing I try is going to get me off meds.
At least, maybe by next life time:>))