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Don Salmon's avatar

Best, most practical column in awhile.

It was funny - if you followed Camilla Nord's points right up to just before she announces her materialist beliefs, you could have been reading an idealist, panentheist, non dual or even integral non dual view.

You know, this whole topic could be the focus of our discussion tomorrow AND it could be a great starting point to explore what scientists mean by "causality."

Granted there's no purely neurobiological account of any mental disorder. In fact, the sole means of determining genetic causation - "twins raised away" - has been shown to be flawed in the one area everyone thought it was a slam dunk - schizophrenia (it's also been shown to be fatally flawed in the area of depression, where it has been used a lot to prove genetic causation).

It's interesting how even the most unschooled person suddenly becomes a philosopher when they show up for an appointment with me for pain management: "But you're a psychologist. My pain is not just in my head, it's REAL."

So here's a question for you, Marco, for tomorrow:

If someone was abused as a toddler, then subject to vicious racist attacks as a child and teen, then thrown in jail on false, trumped up charges, then subject to other interpersonal challenges and they end up depressed, one doesn't have to have any scientific or philosophic background to object to someone saying, "Oh, they're depressed because of some purely biochemical or genetic reason." We all can FEEL how we emotionally and mentally respond to challenging situations.

Now, say I had an equally direct inner experience of what it's like to be a falling apple or a planet circling the sun. And I KNEW directly that there was an inner force, a living force, one with profound intelligence, moving me - moving AS me.

if someone tried to tell me that some lifeless, unconscious, unintelligent, mechanical process was moving me, I don't need to study any philosophy or science to know they are only seeing an infinitesimal portion of the picture.

Challenges to materialism seem to get more traction when they go against our experience. When it comes to purely physical things like planets and stars, we don't see how absurd purely physical explanations are only because we can't directly experience the consciousness underlying all physical movement.

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Don Salmon's avatar

Speaking as a doctoral level psychologist with 23 years of experience (23 years licensed, add another 8 years as masters/doctoral level student at various hospitals and other mental health centers), I didn’t find any errors in your presentation, and in fact, agree with 99%.

I don’t have a significant disagreement at all, but it might have been good to add, AT THE PRESENT MOMENT (very important caveat) most people with bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, generally agreed to be the most severe of all mental disorders, will likely need medication.

I say “at the present moment” as a caveat because there is (I think; sorry I don’t have links at the moment) significant evidence that if one combined rich, complex, social supports (really, large scale interpersonal AND radically changed supportive environments), AND a whole host of non verbal psychotherapies, I think there’s a very good chance the level of improvement would radically increase.

But I stopped by to add another interesting story. Last week, The Atlantic published an article on the placebo effect. The author, Arthur Brooks, concluded that placebo has primarily psychological effects, and wno’t “cure” any diseases. I immediately wrote to the editor of The Atlantic (I wrote a note on Brooks’ Facebook page but doubt he will answer) and the editor wrote back, with at least half a dozen basic scientific and philosophic errors, and concluded by saying “since I have shown you that there are no errors in the article [there are numerous]. We won’t be issuing any corrections and unfortunately I won’t be able to continue this conversation)”

I’ve written the editor saying I respect his wishes but asked if I have permission to quote him. I haven’t heard back but I do ask anyone who reads this not to quote that part of this comment.

First, the primary scientific research cited in Brooks’ article was by Jhobartsson (sp?) and a colleague whose name I don’t recall at the moment. These two have been publishing research allegedly debunking the placebo effect that have been, as far as I can see, almost universally assessed as particularly absymal in their lack of rigor and poor methodology. It is quite easy to see from their write up that they are starting with a physicalist view and are almost desperate to prove the lack of validity for placebos. “People FEEL better but apart from that, placebos don’t “really” work.”

Kind of makes you wonder how something that is “merely” subjective and merely makes you “feel better” can widen airways in asthmatics in such a way that can be precisely measured; reduces symptoms of Parkinson’s in equally measurable ways. How does merely feeling different result in an experiment where the following occurs:

Med students are given blue and red pills and told the blue pills are tranquilizers and red are stimulants. Turns out the exact reverse is true. Yet when the physiological effects are measured, those taking the blue pills (who were told they were tranquilizers when they actually were stimulants) showed numerous physiological effects commonly seen in those who take tranquilizers, and those taking the (tranquilizer) red pills showed all the effects commonly seen in people taking stimulants.

Did they just fail to “feel” the correct way? How did this show up as so many physiological effects if placebos merely make you “feel’ differently?

And what kind of ridiculous Cartesian dualism can make someone write, “Placebos have no physical effects, they ONLY make you feel better?”

Sigh. Since we know placebos DO have powerful physiological effects, AND the placebo effect has gotten considerably stronger over the past 25 years due to the drug companies’ relentless promotion of pills as the be all and end all in medical treatment, clearly, the lack of progress in non pharmacological treatment is one of the most powerful nocebo effects.

This proves the powerful potential of philosophic clarification. Once sufficient numbers of people understand there is no purely dualistic separation between mind and body, and both non verbal and verbal therapeutic treatments - ones combining what is known about subtle energy as well as social-environmental treatments - we may have a revolution not only in individual mental health treatment, but individual and social physical health.

My own vote STILL (30+ years after doing research on lucid dreams) goes with large scale scientific efforts to find ways to easily induce lucid dreams, then parapsychological evidence of the possibility of shared dreaming, and then shared-dream exploration of a vast range of treatments and therapies that will usher in a new age in medicine (as well as much else)

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